December 14, 2022
Cindy Lopez:
Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen. Today’s episode is proudly sponsored by Adobe, and we’re so thankful for their support of this Voices of Compassion podcast. Most kids complain about going to school periodically. So what if your child complains almost daily, and they beg you not to go to school? Perhaps it’s time to think about the deeper reasons around why this is happening. There could be various reasons including that they’re falling behind in their schoolwork or that they’re not making friends or that the pace of the instruction leaves them feeling lost and confused. By now you’ve likely had your first parent teacher conference of the year and the feedback about your child might leave you feeling concerned. So what do you do? Should you look for a different type of school environment? Join us for this timely conversation with CHC education experts, Chris Harris, Chief Schools Officer and Miki Walker, Director of Sand Hill School. Welcome Chris and Miki.
Chris Harris, MEd:
Hi everyone. I’m Chris Harris. I am the Chief Education Officer for the Children’s Health Council. I’ve been with the organization for 25 years most of the time running either one of the Esther B. Clark Schools or the Sand Hill School.
Miki Walker:
Hi everyone. Hi Cindy. Thanks for having me. My name’s Miki Walker, I’m the Director at Sand Hill School. I’m so excited to be part of this. This is such an important topic that we’ll be talking about today.
Cindy Lopez:
We’re so grateful to both of you for taking the time to chat with us today about this. My background has been in schools and education as well. So for our listeners, just so you know, if we added up all of our years of combined experience, it would be a lot.
Cindy Lopez:
So we’re talking about mainstream schools. We could also use the word traditional or conventional schools, and today we’re talking about those types of schools in our conversation. So let’s define or describe what that kind of program is and what we’re referring to when we say traditional or mainstream or conventional.
Chris Harris, MEd:
So, these are schools that typically expect their students to meet grade level common core curriculum standards as they move through their journey at school, and they expect youngsters to gain mastery of the content of prescribed units and skills articulated in that common core in the year and during the time that it’s being presented by the teacher. The public schools expect students to internalize and adhere to the basic rules and performance expectations and exhibit appropriate social relationships with an expanding category of people and with increasing autonomy. And then finally, of course in the mainstream school, the expectation is that students will achieve a full high school diploma, giving them the opportunity to pursue post-secondary options from education to vocation. And lastly, in the public sector for sure parents expect their educational programming to be delivered free of charge.
Cindy Lopez:
You know, you brought up a few different points in there, generally that there’s a prescribed course or curriculum. And I think that’s still the same for a non-mainstream school or a non-conventional school. So what would a non-mainstream or specialized school program include?
Miki Walker:
So, going back to, you know, combining our years in education, what’s interesting, so I’ve been in education for the last 20 years, and I would definitely say there’s a huge influx of what’s available as school choice. Specialized schools do have a particular curriculum, that’s what the name says. It specializes either in a particular philosophy of focus or they may follow a specific instructional approach or way of teaching, which often draws a particular group of students. But, you know, when I first started in education, I think school choice was relatively in the early education, preschool setting. You heard about Regio Montessori, Head Start programs, parent participation, and today what’s exciting is you hear more and more choices for families in elementary and high school levels, and it’s almost a revolution in education of some sorts, right? So there’s so many examples. We could start with parochial schools, obviously following a particular religion that’s embedded the respective faith or values are embedded into the program. We have charter schools. You know, charter schools are public schools, they’re publicly funded. They’re still held to the same standards as other neighborhood public schools. They follow ed code, they take standardized tests, but they have the flexibility of following a particular philosophy or approach to learning.
We have magnet schools. Magnet schools have been around, but it’s a strategy for districts to draw a particular population within a district. And a lot of times magnet schools can focus like charter schools on a way of teaching or an approach. You know, a common one I’ve heard is STEAM or STEM schools, STEAM standing for science, technology, engineering, arts and math. Then we have, especially with the pandemic, now we often hear of virtual schools becoming a choice for families and then to the same extent, homeschooling. We have a lot more schools that are focused on providing families with the option of homeschooling their child. And then we have the description of independent schools, often interchangeable with private schools, and they too also focus on a particular way of learning. A lot of parochial schools are considered independent private schools for obvious reasons. We have independent schools that focus on gifted students or schools that focus on students with a learning difference, often dyslexia.
So I think my point here is there is such a tremendous amount of choice for families today, and I think we’ll probably hit some of these further down in our conversation, but I think it points to the direction of why so many families are having to think about what choice makes the best decision for their child.
Cindy Lopez:
Thank you for explaining all those different types of schools. So I would say that most families probably choose their public school because it’s the most obvious option to them. And it’s usually going to be the closest to them. Their kids are going to get to know other kids in their neighborhoods and socially that’s a good thing. So there are probably many really positive options for attending your neighborhood school. So I’m wondering as we talk about specialized schools versus some of these other mainstream traditional conventional options, why would parents choose something different?
Chris Harris, MEd:
First of all, there’s a difference I think, when we talk about specialized schools and when we talk about alternative schools. So when we refer to alternative schools, we’re basically talking about youngsters who are going to handle a more traditional curriculum. They may adhere to a certain philosophy or a component in the program that they’re particularly seeking. It may be partly that they wanna be with like students. For example, the gifted programs if you will.
When we talk about specialized schools basically the connotation that most people have is that specialized schools are an intervention because the youngster isn’t being successful in the school that they’re in currently, which we’re gonna define as a more mainstream setting. And this is of course the core of what we’re talking about today, and how do parents begin to make such a difficult decision. There are a couple of things that I think lead up to that. I’m sure Miki’s gonna have some comments on this as well. So initially, parents realized that in the setting that they’re in, something isn’t working, something isn’t right. They’re either getting a report from the teacher or the youngster is kind of feeling not excited about going to school. They start complaining about certain components like I don’t have any friends. I flunked another math test. So they’re hearing from both the youngster and usually pretty soon after a teacher that the youngster is having some struggles. It could be academic, it could be social, it could be emotional, it could even be physical the fact that the youngster just can’t calm themselves and function as a traditional student in a classroom.
So the first course of action that usually parents take is they look for a specialist to quote, “fix the problem,” so they call up a tutor, they call up a therapist, they get an occupational therapist. They find a specialist for the degree of the problem that they know of and so they’re hoping, and everybody does hope this, that with the addition of that specialist, the youngster’s going to be able to remain in the setting that they’re currently in and they just needed a little bit more support. So then parents get more concerned when after they’ve done an intervention or two the youngster still isn’t feeling, you know, a part of that school community. The parents are still getting calls from the teacher or by now the principal, and at home what they’re seeing probably is increasing dislike about going to school. They’re feeling down about their status in the school probably socially. They’re probably not having the friendships or sustaining the friendships they want. They’re not getting a lot of positive feedback from the teacher perhaps, and they’re really kind of resisting, you know, some of the academic work, particularly the homework. So as this situation increases and begins to spiral up to the point where youngsters actually can refuse to go to school like some of the youngsters do at Esther B. Clark School. Parents might then begin to consider making a wholesale school environment change.
Miki Walker:
Yeah, just to add to a couple points, you know, oftentimes parents they’ll share a narrative with me. You know, my kid was happy, excited over the weekend and then Monday rolls around and all of a sudden they have a stomach ache or they don’t feel well and they’re saying, “I don’t wanna go to school,” and it’s not just a one time thing, it’s a recurring pattern. And I think that’s really important to behaviors, communication, and I think it’s important for families to, you know, really pay attention to the behaviors and sometimes it’s gonna be very concrete, “I don’t like school,” and sometimes it’s gonna be so subtle, like Chris said, paying attention to those things that you’re seeing and experiencing as a parent or caregiver. I think those are all indicators or signs that it might be time to start considering and looking into some of these other types of schools.
Chris Harris, MEd:
Actually a couple of more points I just want to add too. So it may be that the youngster actually begins to withdraw from their peers and begins to stop even wanting to go to the extracurricular activities that they have talent in and those are real red flags to me because then a youngster is not feeling successful at all in the environment as opposed to I’m not such a good reader, I’m not such a good mathematician, but I’m still on the sports team, and I really have a lot of friends, but the more global the dislike or a dissatisfaction of school or the sadness about being there, the more we want parents to pay attention to that.
Cindy Lopez:
Chris, you mentioned Esther B Clark school. And for our listeners, Esther B Clark is one of our schools at CHC as is Sand Hill School. We’re going to say a few things about that in a few minutes in our conversation. There are lots of things that might lead parents to consider a different school or different type of learning environment for their child. We’ve talked about not being able to access the curriculum and Miki just mentioned physical factors like somatic complaints and even school refusal or school avoidance. We actually did a previous episode with Jody Miller, Head of Esther B. Clark Schools on school refusal and school avoidance. So feel free to look that up if that’s where you’re at with your child. You’ve talked with us a little bit about this, but what might parents or caregivers be seeing in their kids that would lead them to consider a different type of school environment for their child?
Miki Walker:
It’s two parts: it’s not seeing progress and it’s not a change in attitude towards learning. I think for me, those are the two factors, after trying interventions and when they’re not working that’s what you really key in on. And I think just to add to this, we’re talking about students who are having difficulty with learning, but on the flip side, we also have students who may show these signs and symptoms when they’re bored as well with curriculum cause they’re no longer interested. They’re not motivated, and you’ll see the dragging their feet in the morning as well. So it’s not just students who are struggling accessing curriculum, it’s also students who can access the curriculum, but they’re not challenged. So I think it’s important to really know your child, know your student, what their profile is and look at it from that lens to see, okay, what are these behaviors? What are they telling me through this, and what do I need to look at further?
Cindy Lopez:
Yeah. And so if a parent is seeing this or a caregiver is seeing some things in their child, how would they go about making a change or should they even make a change?
Chris Harris, MEd:
There’s a lot for parents to consider when they are actually considering a full school environmental change, especially to a specialized school. One of the big things I know that probably parents feel is, is my child gonna be stigmatized? Is my child going to be categorized as someone that they’re not. Or by taking the risk of sending them to a specialized school will it really help my child be able to return to the mainstream and have the full life that every parent wants for their youngster?
So when they consider whole environmental changes, they understand that there’s a risk involved, especially when a youngster has some parts of the current school that they feel good about. So for example, if they have a large peer group, if they’re on the sports team, if they’re in the band and there’s something that holds them and the specialized school can’t offer those as part of their program, that really is a hard, hard decision for parents to make.
Another thing that might be confusing to parents, and I sure have seen this in my career and I bet the two of you have too, is the parents oftentimes get conflicting reports from professionals. So for example, it may be that the resource teacher and the support people and some of the people in the mainstream school are saying, “oh, we’re so pleased with how Billy’s doing. He’s making progress. We’re seeing him engaged in the work we’re doing with him.” We really wouldn’t recommend you pulling him out right now. Whereas a private clinician might say, “wow, this is a serious situation,” and you might really wanna consider going to a whole specialized school. So that leaves parents kind of confused.
Another factor that I think that parents have to ask themselves is, especially if they’re in a public school right now where the education is free, is typically If you go to a private specialized school, you’re probably gonna pay tuition, and you’re going to pay considerable tuition for the specialized service and program that that particular specialized school offers. And so if you go from a free education to a pretty expensive education, that’s another factor that parents really have to think about while they make this decision. Those are some of the common themes I see when parents are in a conundrum of my youngster really isn’t doing all that great, but do I really take this huge leap of faith and put my youngster into a specialized learning environment?
Miki Walker:
To add to that, I think one of the things parents consider is class size. It’s the first thing that came to mind, how big is a school? You know, not just a class, but how big is a school? What’s their approach to learning, and how is that related to how my child learns, and I think there’s just so much to consider when changing that it’s not a quick decision that you can make overnight. I think that’s my point. It’s something you really have to be thoughtful about and do your research and know your child, and what is it that you feel will support them. Like what is your goal? And then when you’re researching, having a list of questions and knowing that you’re not alone. I think that would be my one thing to make sure parents understand there’s so many resources available.
Mike:
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Cindy Lopez:
So it’s typically a time right now when schools are doing parent teacher conferences, and they might be hearing in the conference some little red flags that might be coming up or some things that the teacher or other specialists that the child’s working with are explaining to them about what they’re seeing in their child during the school day. So what are some things that parents might be hearing during a parent teacher conference that might get them to think this could be another piece of the puzzle or this could be another piece of the picture.
Chris Harris, MEd:
From my own perspective if the parent conference talks only about the struggles and the deficits and the attitude, I’m gonna implicitly imply negative or withdrawing then, you know, if there’s nothing positive coming out of a parent conference, then parents might want to think about whether that youngster’s being adequately supported in that particular environment. Now, it may be that they were supported terrifically the year before and for whatever reason the youngster isn’t being particularly supported with the new set of people that he or she is working with. So that’s a caution, but on the other hand, if there’s a trend where the engagement in school by the youngster and the reports that parents are getting are persistently concerned, worried, you know, upset, if you will, I mean, all the kinds of things that you don’t want to hear from a teacher and it pervades the conversation that would be something that I would recommend parents be thinking about and do some exploration into alternative or different school environment.
Miki Walker:
I agree with Chris. I think if at a parent conference, you know, you’re a few months into the school year and it’s all negative or describing challenges and the teachers are identifying strategies or interventions that they’ve tried thus far, I think yes, that would be a time for parents to definitely consider or start considering another option. I would hope that it’s not the first time that they’re hearing it at a parent conference and that they’ve heard the challenges and the strategies being tried way before. You know, I think we’re all on the same boat. Parent conferences are about teamwork, collaboration. We’re all there to support the students.
Cindy Lopez:
Yeah, good point. In the years and all the conversations I’ve had with parents and students, usually when parents were coming to talk to me and I was working in a specialized school at the time, and they’re saying, I’m thinking about a different type of school, a different learning environment for my child, but I don’t know maybe I just need to wait and see. So what’s your response when a parent is talking like that?
Chris Harris, MEd:
So I think one of the things that I reassure parents about is that unlike traditional, private, independent schools that you apply for and by a certain time and you get your admission notice, well in advance, early in the semester, typically specialized schools are taking admission inquiries when parents need to. I mean, and it could be much later in the spring, so that if something changes to the positive, they’re not stuck having to go, right?
The other thing I think that’s critical for parents to assess when they’re thinking about a specialized school is to actually put themselves on a campus and to allow their youngster to have an authentic experience in that school for a short period of time, could be a day, could be three days, but the idea of what is the feedback that youngster gives you when they come back from that specialized school? So it could be anything from, “ugh, I found my school, when can I go,” to “I’m not going to that school.” And I think parents need to really listen to that because when kids find their tribe, that’s what they call it at Sand Hill a lot, they migrate to that. They wanna go, they are reenergized about going to school. And when they feel that that’s not gonna be their community or their tribe, they will absolutely express that to their parents and that’s pretty authentic communication.
Cindy Lopez:
As we think about specialized schools, especially if they’re learning challenges, I think there could be some stigma attached to that and parents might think, well, I don’t really want my child to go to that kind of school or I’m afraid of how it might impact my child’s self-esteem and that kind of goes back to what you were just saying, Chris. The idea that the kids really found their tribe. Like all those things contribute to a social, emotional wellbeing. So I’m wondering about how much the stigma of going to a special school might be, do you hear parents or kids talking about that?
Miki Walker:
The answer to your question really is about where the student is in knowing who they are as a learner to start with. You know, developmental, depending on their age, and how the parents have those discussions with their child, right? If you’re going to a specialized school, once they get to the specialized school like Chris said, you found your tribe and kids talk, right? They start to notice things like, oh, so and so is using a special tool to help them read or to help them write. And so I think it’s about embracing learning differences. You know, at CHC and Sand Hill and EBC, we talk about learning differences. We all learn differently. We’re all neurodiverse, right? And so, yes, I do feel like there could be a stigma, but again, it’s why aren’t we having these conversations with our kids and with each other and embracing these learning differences. So I think, yes, a parent and family could be swayed by the possible stigma, but also I think it’s about moving society towards embracing neurodiversity. We have to start there. And you know, at Sand Hill one of the aspects is our teachers and staff believe in supporting students towards embracing themselves as a learner and what that looks like and what that feels like and the tools they need cause at the end of the day, we want to see them transition or graduate back into you know a conventional or a mainstream school where they feel confident about themselves, it’s no longer about that learning barrier they had. They’re now embracing that difference and going, yeah, this is who I am, this is what I need, but I can do it. So I think it’s just about having that conversation. And if you’re not ready to have that conversation, then that’s a whole ‘nother podcast.
Cindy Lopez:
So in addition to kids who have learning differences, our attention challenges, there’s also the social emotional piece, the behavioral piece of school, and sometimes parents might make a different choice because of that. Chris, I know you’ve had some experience with that. Do you want to speak to that for a minute?
Chris Harris, MEd:
So it’s a very tough call, and I think one of the things that we have learned over the years at CHC is that mental health or behavior issues can depress academic performance and that academic performance can obviously precipitate emotional and social hardship as well. And I bring that up because it’s a very important distinction to make because the program needs to fit the primary source of that issue. And we can talk a little bit about Esther B. Clark School and Sand Hill, which is a very good example of prioritizing working with youngsters on their social emotional regulation and self-management skills in order to have them accessible to academic instruction. At Sand Hill, we’re working on academic instruction and helping youngsters understand their selves as learners so that they can better regulate their emotions and their frustration that they feel about not making the progress that they wish they were in another setting. We are trying to help youngsters get ready and be successful in a less restrictive environment, so that they can in fact take advantage of all the extracurricular activities and the social opportunities that a more mainstream high school campus is
Cindy Lopez:
Our schools here at CHC, Sand Hill School and Esther B Clark School or EBC as we call it, they’re designed for kids with learning challenges and for kids with more social, emotional behavioral kinds of challenge, both designed for students who need a different type of environment. So, could you talk a little bit about what the hallmarks of those two schools are? And also just comment on something we really haven’t talked that much about, transition.
Miki Walker:
I’ll speak to Sand Hill. Sand Hill is a specialized intervention school that supports students with language based learning differences, specifically dyslexia and many of our students have a related challenge of ADHD or anxiety, school related anxiety. The program is structured or designed to target student learning gaps in a small setting.
So we have two teachers per classroom. You know, our class sizes between 12 and 14, and we have specialists who support our students, and those specialists can range from reading specialists to even our speech and language therapists. The idea is we’re building an inclusive program where the speech and language therapist goes into the classroom, supports the teachers from a whole group setting. Also they may support recess. So it’s just not a typical, you know, you only learn in the classroom. Learning is happening throughout the day and our teachers, like I mentioned before, they’re supporting personalized learning plans that are individualized to the student with goals in all the academic areas, executive functioning, social emotional, and really our school-wide learner outcomes is to support students to become that self-advocate about the way they learn, what tools they need, and I think it builds their emotional intelligence at the same time, everything is built into the program with intentionality. We want our Sand Hill students to graduate, to transition back into their mainstream school, not only with the academic skills, but with the self-advocacy skills.
Chris Harris, MEd:
So, I’ll take on Esther B. Clark School. So one of the fundamental differences between the schools, I just wanna point out before I get into EBC, is that Sand Hill School is an independent school. So parents do have to pay tuition whereas Esther B. Clark School is actually considered a non-public school. So it is part of the public school spectrum of special services that are provided to parents free of charge. However, Esther B. Clark is considered to be quite a restrictive setting. It’s only one step down from having a youngster go to residential school and so the candidates are referred by the district in an attempt to keep the youngster in the community. Even though the resources, the emotional resources, the behavioral resources that are in the in-district special education programs haven’t been fully successful in helping the youngster become more self-regulated and to self-manage and function better in the classroom.
So, Esther B. Clark is a combination therapeutic and behavior milieu where we work with youngsters, with therapists, with behavior specialists, with special education credential teachers, all working in coordination and collaboration to help that youngster understand their emotions, first of all, and then understand how they can actually manage those emotions and prevent them from actually having outbursts or feeling like they have to not go to school in order to be safe, or to manage the anxiety that they have about being around other students. So the program is absolutely designed to help those kids actually acquire those skills so that they can return to their mainstream school settings with considerably less support services and go on and earn their diploma in high school. Actually, Esther B. Clark serves youngsters from kindergarten to now 10th grade. The idea is for youngsters to spend a considerably shorter period of time than that age range at the school in order to get back to their district.
Cindy Lopez:
Sand Hill School and Esther B. Clark School here at Children’s Health Council are just two schools, and there are many options in our area locally on the peninsula. There’s also options if you wanted to go to a boarding school. And lots of schools, including Sand Hill School, have some financial assistance. They use a sliding scale, so to speak. So they look at the need for each family, and there are lots of schools in the Bay Area that could be alternatives or special schools for your child. So Chris and Miki as we wrap up our episode today I’m wondering what advice do you have for parents or caregivers who are thinking that their child might need something different?
Chris Harris, MEd:
I think when parents see a global disengagement from school and the emergence of behaviors and feelings and attitudes that are counterproductive to the youngster being successful and worrisome obviously for parents, it’s worth doing an investigation. There’s no obligation to go to a open house or attend a parent tour or to visit a campus and talk to the admission people and the other thing I would leave it with is it’s really important for both parents and the youngsters to have an authentic experience with the school that you’re considering. It is remarkable to me how quickly the visceral feelings of parents and or youngsters are indicated about fit or not fit, and you should trust those. Trust your youngster’s visceral feelings and trust your own visceral feelings about the campuses when you visit them.
Miki Walker:
Very similar to Chris. I have to say yes, it’s about having that authentic experience when visiting, but also listening to your child. I always like to say parents know their child best, right? You’ve known them the longest. You’ve seen ’em through the highs and the lows, and so listening to the behavior we talked about that you might start to see. Also, I think it’s stopping and reflecting on this question of what’s my child’s attitude towards learning, not just school, because a lot of times youngsters will say, I love recess. You know, but what’s their attitude towards learning and if you can answer that and it’s not a great answer, then it’s time to start thinking like Chris said, start investigating. There’s no obligation to doing some research, even looking at what else is around in your neighborhood or area, talking to other people. So I think it really comes down to just asking yourselves those honest questions, and I think that’ll guide the next steps.
Cindy Lopez:
Well, thank you both for sharing your expertise and your insights and perspective with us today. It’s an important topic that we really haven’t addressed yet in our podcast. And it’s timely for parents, especially as they might be hearing about their child and how that first quarter or that first semester at school is starting out. For our listeners, if you’d like to learn more, you can find out more about Esther B. Clark school at chconline.org, and you can find out more about Sand Hill school at sandhillsschool.org. And for parents whose kids are in high school and who are maybe experiencing some learning challenges, we also have another part of our organization called the Schwab Learning Center.
Chris Harris, MEd:
The learning specialists who staff the Swab Learning Center are focused particularly on adolescents and young adults. Their experience and their background in training is specifically for that particular age group and their goal is to help youngsters through high school and getting ready for a post-secondary option as well. So they do youth to adult transition services.
Cindy Lopez:
So there are all kinds of resources for you here at CHC, and we’d love for you to reach out to us. We appreciate you listening to this episode today, and we’ll hope you listen in again next week.
Chris Harris, MEd:
Thank you.
Miki Walker:
Thank you.
Cindy Lopez:
Visit us online at podcasts.chconline.org. Make sure to subscribe to Voices of Compassion so you never miss an episode, and we’d love it if you’d leave us a rating and review. Have a question? Send us an email or a voice memo at podcasts@chconline.org. We’re here for you when you need us.
