Praise the Journey, Not the Destination

Cindy Lopez:
Welcome to Voices of Compassion, CHC’s podcast series providing courage, connection and compassion, highlighting topics that matter to our community, our parents, families, educators and other professionals. My name is Cindy Lopez, we’re excited to welcome Jenn Curtis, co-author of the book, The Parent Compass. So today we’re talking about the journey versus the destination. The journey is where we learn to do hard things, make mistakes and experience successes and failures and develop the motivation to continue the journey. It’s where we develop resilience, practice growth mindset strategies and build self-confidence. So listen to this podcast episode and hear from Jenn Curtis, author and a parent herself, to gain important insights and strategies that you can use to support your child on their journey.

So welcome Jenn, thank you so much for joining us on today’s podcast episode. I’m just wondering before we get started if there’s anything that you’d like to share with our listeners?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
I am an educational consultant. I live in Orange county California, and I own a company called Future-Wise Consulting where I work with high school students from across the nation on academic planning and the college admission process, but prior to coming to educational consulting my background was in mental health and research and social work. So I really come to college counseling through the mental health and wellness lens and really try to incorporate self-discovery and growth in my work with my students.

Cindy Lopez:
Yeah, that’s great and that definitely comes across in your book, The Parent Compass, and we’re going to be talking today about Praise the Journey, Not the Destination, and I love that idea. Can you talk a little bit about what that means as it relates to our conversation today?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
So, instilling grit and resilience in our tweens and teens, and I think frankly one of the biggest barriers to instilling grit and resilience in our kids is when we praise the destination to the detriment of focusing on the journey. So in other words, we focus too much on the outcome and not enough on the process or the effort that it takes to get there and this approach to understanding intelligence and abilities is rooted in a huge body of research pioneered in large part by Carol Dweck, who looked at the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. As parents when we’re reinforcing a growth mindset we’re normalizing mistakes, we’re teaching that they can be a really potent way to learn and we’re instilling critical self-advocacy skills in our tweens and teens and frankly in kids of all ages. We’re helping them learn their ability to speak up for themselves and ask for help when they need it and to seek really hard to hear constructive criticism, which is often where we can grow the most. And so as a parent, we can really recognize and praise our kids for what they did to master a task, rather than focusing too narrowly on the achievement. And I see this happening in my practice a lot, particularly when it comes to grades. And so as parents we can instead of focusing on, oh, good job, you got that A, we can really focus on the time that it took maybe to seek extra help from a teacher or the hours of preparation for a project and the diligence that we saw our student display, and so in doing that, the student can really learn if I work on my intelligence, I can constantly grow it. And when I make a mistake I welcome and I embrace the mistake and I look at it as an opportunity to analyze what I can do better next time, but one of my favorite parts about Carol Dweck’s research is she points to the word ‘yet’ and incorporating that in our kids vocabulary. And what I mean by that is our kids learn to say I can’t do that, yet. And I just think that that’s so, so potent as we try to facilitate this type of thinking in our kids and on the other side of that I mentioned the fixed mindset and fixed mindset is a lot more rigid, it’s a lot more black and white. As a parent, we might be focusing more on awards and recognition rather than really diving into what went on behind the scenes to get there and so when that happens, the student starts to look at say their intelligence or an ability in black and white terms. So I’m either smart or I’m not smart, and it becomes this fixed concept that can become tied to their identity and to seeking parental approval. And when that happens, they really do tend to shy away from embracing challenges and taking risks because they don’t want to kind of upset that identity. And so I love that you started with this question because I think it’s so central to our conversation in that this is what teaches our kids to approach challenges with intrigue and curiosity, and to see failure not as an end point, but instead as a really critical and valuable stepping stone, and then really to love learning for learning’s sake.

Cindy Lopez:
We are big fans of Carol Dweck at CHC and she’s just next door to us at Stanford, but really, also appreciate that power of yet, right. Parents have such an important role and as a parent you can find it difficult to truly connect with your tween or teen especially. So I’m wondering what do you think is the parents’ most important role during these tween and teen years?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
I think as parents we can really hone our listening skills. So much of our role at this point needs to be helping our kids to feel heard. And I think in doing that we need to learn to listen more and to talk less, our natural instinct is to rush in and give advice because we’ve been there before and we, you know, we’ve lived it. Frankly, it feels really good to us to fix, we’ve done something, we’ve helped them, we’ve solved a problem, but it doesn’t always feel good to our tween or teen. And so I think one practical thing that parents can do is when their student comes to them with a problem, ask them what they need in that moment. Do they need advice or do they need you to just sit there and soak up what they’re trying to tell you.

I think also we need to, our own nail biting aside and wincing, as we do it, we need to watch our kids make mistakes and experience those massive failures and then help them to pick up the pieces when it happens. It feels incredibly empowering to them after they’ve gotten through the mistake or through the failure with our help, with our hand holding by their side, it feels empowering to them to then figure it out for themselves as we sit alongside them and watch them try. And one thing that I remember that I actually wrote into the book, because it was such a potent memory: years ago I worked with a student who I just had all the respect in the world for, and she was confident, she was poised, she was a great student and just really was someone who was going to go out and do great things someday. And I remember toward the end of our work together I sat with her and I asked her, “what did your parents do?” Cause I’m always trying to gather parenting tips from my own teens and the families that I work with, And without skipping a beat, she looked straight at me and she said, “they made me do hard things.” And I think, that’s something that I’ve incorporated into my parenting since the moment my kids were born because of that moment, because I remember her saying that and I remember thinking, yeah. Watching my daughter tie her shoes is painful for me, every morning when we’re late for school, but she needs to learn it and she screams and she yells and she gets mad and she gets frustrated, but she needs to learn it, and I as a parent, need to step back and let her learn it. So, I think that doing hard things can be another really great way to shepherd them through these years.

Doing hard things is good for all of us to remember and also just your advice to parents about when your child comes to you with something like, what do you want me to do at this moment, do you want me to listen, do you want me to give you advice, what do you need in this moment, and I think that’s so important. I mean, that’s important for everyone in terms of communication, but really important for those developing years with your child and that parent-child relationship.

And I also think the timing is important too, because I find myself doing this you know, if my kids come in the door and I’ve been home all day working and pent up and, you know, there’s something that I need to talk to them about. And so to quell my own anxiety, they come in the door and I’m like, okay, we need to talk about this and we need to… and I do it to my husband too, but because we’re talking about kids here, I’ll, I’ll focus on that. And I think instead of that, I can do a better job of, and we probably all can of asking our kids, if there is something important that we need to talk to them about, and we know we’re going to need to be practicing those listening skills, to ask them when a good time for them is because it’s probably not going to be the time, that’s the time for us that we want to do it.

Cindy Lopez:
Thank you for tuning in! Just a note, before we continue on with today’s episode, we hope you’re following us on social media, so you don’t need to wait a whole week between episodes to get engaging, inspiring and educational content from CHC. Our social handles are linked on our podcast webpage at podcasts.chconline.org.

In your book you also talked about the need for parents to take a little trip down memory lane and that’s an important piece of kind of their own perspective in this situation, can you talk a little bit about that?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
So, interestingly enough the chapter on taking a walk down memory lane comes at the beginning of the book, but it was one of the last chapters that my co-author Cindy Muchnick and I wrote and we got to the end of our writing process and we were reviewing everything and we realized in doing so that there was this big chasm, and we were asking parents to employ various strategies to have better parenting behavior. And to rethink what they were doing, but we hadn’t asked them to look at the root of their parenting, which in many ways is the way that we were all brought up. And so we wrote this chapter about taking a walk down memory lane to help parents take an inventory of how they grew up, how they were treated as children, how academics and education were treated in their home what kind of student were they, what kind of personality did they have, how did that personality mesh with their parents, how does their personality mesh with their own kids now?

And then we took it one step further and we created questionnaires and there were two sets of questionnaires, there were questionnaires that helped a parent probe their partner or if they didn’t have a partner maybe a trusted family member, to open up the lines of communication and to really talk about the biases that they were bringing to their own parenting. And then we also created questionnaires for parents to facilitate communication with their kids around bettering their parenting. We found them to be very effective because I think when we show humility to our tweens and teens, when we go to them saying I want to parent better, I want to be the best parent to you that I can, and I realized that I don’t necessarily have all the answers, and so will you do these questionnaires with me so that we can improve our communication and improve our relationship. Kids were very willing to sit down and talk to their parents, but I think one other important point that’s kind of wrapped up in this whole issue is this idea of competitive parenting, that’s kind of where it all comes back to. So we take inventory of the way that we grew up and how that impacts our parenting and then we flash forward to this idea of competitive parenting, this idea that somehow if our kid accomplishes something or is successful in an area that reflects that we’re a good parent in some way, mistakenly.

I’m certainly not immune to this, and I have to really keep myself in check and ask myself to take a walk down memory lane and explore why it’s so important to me that my kids are looked at in a certain way or at the top of their class or whatever it is, but the idea of taking a walk down memory lane was to kind of help quell that competitive parenting and really notice it creeping in.

Cindy Lopez:
Yeah it’s so interesting that we as parents can be competitive. We look at other kids and say, well, how come they are doing so well in this way, but my child is not, and so that comparison thing really gets to us in a negative way sometimes. So, how do you truly see your child and what do you mean by that and if you have any tips for parents along those lines?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
What I mean by that is acceptance, accepting our kids for who they are and celebrating that kid, not the kid we wish them to be, not wishing that they had different talents or that they are, you know, better at something because, when they feel seen and when they feel celebrated that’s when they thrive, but conversely it’s when they feel pushed and prodded into something they’re not that our relationship with them begins to suffer. And I think that this, you know, this whole concept can be harder than it sounds. I think we can say little things that maybe we shouldn’t say, and I think we all have hopes and dreams for our kids, and I think that that’s wonderful, but sometimes I think that those hopes and dreams can go too far, overpowering what those hopes and desires are for themselves and we can lose sight of what it is that they want, what we’d like to tell parents is you had your turn, this is their turn.

I’m a big proponent of goal setting and of the reasons is I think goal setting can really teach kids how to live intentional lives and in the Parent Compass, there’s an entire chapter dedicated to goal setting and why it’s important, how it helps kids be intentional and how it helps them thrive. I think goal setting with your children, if it’s done in a sensitive way, can really set the foundation for understanding what it is that your teen wants for him or herself. And, it shows them that, you know, in helping them through setting goals for themselves, you get to learn more about what it is that they want, and then they learn that whatever it is that they want is valued by you.

I would really urge parents to learn about goal setting and to employ that in their homes. And then I think one other tip is to get on board with their interests, however different they are from your own. Uh, one of my students years ago was really into the stock market and his mom wanted to connect with him, but she had no experience with the stock market, really frankly, no interest in the stock market, but nevertheless, every single morning they ate their breakfast together and watched the stock market open, and it was just an incredible bonding moment for them and something that he ended up writing his college essay about because it was so impactful to him. So when we can share in those interests, even when frankly they’re not an interest of our own, our kids again will feel heard and understood and accepted.

I think it’s up to us as parents to be in tune with where our kids are at, we’ll see this a lot with kids who want to quit sports and I think it’s up to us as parents to really have those tough conversations with them and to look at their motivation for quitting whatever it is that they want because sometimes they are burned out and they do need a break and they do need to be able to quit.

Sometimes a break will suffice and, and then they’ll come back really refreshed. And sometimes we need to have those conversations with them that, you know what, you committed to this, you need to finish it and then we’ll reevaluate. So, we might see any one of those situations and it’s up to us as parents to really kind of tease out the motivation and to be really in tune with our kid and their personality and their tendencies but absolutely. And what you said earlier, reminds me of a quote that I very recently heard on the Parent Footprint Podcast. And the idea behind the quote was the only thing that leaves your home after 18 years is your relationship with your child. And I think that can really color all of our parenting behavior and when we find ourselves pushing, pushing, pushing, I think we really need to be thinking about, okay, but what is this, yes I want these things for my kid yes I want to see them succeed, but, really most importantly, don’t I want a relationship with them, don’t I want them to leave here after 18 years wanting a relationship with me?

Cindy Lopez:
Yeah, so important and I think parents’ view of their child, like you already alluded to this, how do you truly see your child? Also along those lines is how can parents really show their children that they believe in them? I think that’s another piece of this puzzle that we’ve been talking about, what are some ways parents might fail to do that and any suggestions that you have for our listeners about how they can more effectively do that?

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
One of the things that I see very often in my practice and in fact it is the anecdote that starts off the Parent Compass and that is talking over our kids. It’s not allowing them to have a voice and an opinion and the anecdote that I started The Parent Compass was a young woman who came into my office with her mom and her mom was just kind of went on and on and on about her sister, and I noticed about five minutes into talking that poor girl sitting in front of me hadn’t gotten a word in edgewise and so I tried to loop her in the conversation and I just asked her, you know, what do you like to do? And she all but burst into tears and turned bright red and started kind of wailing at her mom and she was unable to answer me. And I really realized in that moment with my experience with that mom, I realized that this girl had never spoken for herself. Her mom had been talking over her and managing too much and pushing it over parenting, and so what this really comes down to is self-advocacy skills, which can translate to self-confidence. So I think in younger kids, we don’t give them enough credit for some of the ways that they can speak up for themselves. And some of those ways might be, for instance, when you go to a restaurant, they can order for themselves. Not because I’m an amazing parent only because of what I’ve learned in my practice I started employing this. When we would take my kids to a restaurant they knew as soon as they were able to speak for themselves, that my husband and I were not going to order their food for them. They needed to learn to look the server in the eye and ask what they wanted. If they wanted a glass of milk, they had to ask for that, if they wanted coloring pages, they had to ask for that. And the same goes for the doctor, I think kids are very capable of telling the doctor what hurts or what’s wrong and sure as parents we’re going to need to fill in the blanks, particularly for the younger kids, but they can have a first pass at it. And when they have a first pass at it, they feel wow, you know, what I say is important and it matters, and I think that that then translates for those younger kids to being able to more comfortably speak to other adults and even their teachers, which then leads me to the older kids obviously they can do all the things that I just mentioned at restaurants and doctor’s offices, but I think it really translates to the classroom and to the playing field, to their coaches and a lot of older kids might be uncomfortable approaching their teachers and advocating for themselves or learning why they got a certain grade or asking for something. And so as parents, I think we at first can encourage them to do it. If they need help troubleshooting or they need to role play with us, role playing can be a really powerful way to help them practice speaking up to their teachers. And then we can even sit next to them as they craft an email to their teacher, if that’s what’s appropriate for the situation, but what we can’t do is to kind of take over and go to the teacher ourselves or go to an administrator much less before even approaching the teacher with a problem. Our student needs to be the one that’s doing that, particularly for those tweens and teens. I don’t think I’ve ever connected self-advocacy with believing in your child kind of the way you just did, and I really appreciate that because as you said, you know, giving our child the tools for self-advocacy and then allowing your child to really use those and cultivate them is important and even starting from a young age. To our listeners there’s a lot more in Jen’s book, The Parent Compass and a lot of examples and some more strategies. So if you’re really interested, great book, great tool for you as a parent.

Cindy Lopez:
So we’ve talked about parents truly seeing the child they have and believing in them. What advice do you have for parents to help kids understand and pursue their passion? In your book, you actually talked about some real life students and maybe there’s one of those stories that might be good too share.

Yeah, so I think the biggest thing that we can keep in mind as parents is to make it okay for our kids to explore. We live in this hyper competitive time where in many communities they’re sort of risen this practice of making our kids pick a specialty or what they want to do with the rest of their lives at the age of 13, which frankly is developmentally inappropriate, and so they really feel that pressure and the pressure to pick, uh one thing can be paralyzing for some kids. And so as parents, I think we can really expose them to a variety of activities, led by their natural talent and what they’re indicating that they want to try, and I think also a big piece to this is understanding that a child figuring out that they don’t like something can be just as valuable as them figuring out what they do like, all is not lost if they rule something out. You really kind of can give them some insight into what it is that they’re meant to do. I think it’s also important to mention that once a passion is uncovered or once a student finds some sort of purpose that excitement can really bleed into the rest of that student’s life. So, by way of giving an example, like you were saying, this actually wasn’t in the book, but came about in a book club conversation. One of the cool things that we did not anticipate about The Parent Compass is that book clubs across the country have started picking it up. And for newer printings of the book, there is a book club guide, uh, folded into the book, it’s also available on our website. And so, we jumped into a book club, and this woman was talking about how her daughter was academically unmotivated and she just kind of seemed listless and wasn’t very excited about school or much of anything, and she read the book and she started thinking of some ways to help her daughter, just at least get her involved somehow. And so they ended up deciding to try out wrestling, no experience with wrestling the family really didn’t know much about it, the daughter fell in love with wrestling, and low and behold everything else started to improve the mom was just astounded by the fact that her grades shot up because she was so excited about wrestling. So, I think that that’s a great example of how these things all can be so interconnected.

It’s kind of building confidence in a way that is pervasive across their lives. You shared so many valuable thoughts and insights. And so as we wrap up, I’m wondering if there’s something you hope that parents really hear from you today.

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
I am a big believer in tangible reminders so those things that maybe we can carry around with us that remind us to do something or think a certain way and so for the purposes of this conversation, I give earplugs to all of my students when I start working with them, I have a bowl of them in my office, and I hand them out to students because I tell them, look, I’d like you to carry this around with you and your backpack, stick it in your locker and use it as a tangible reminder to stay the course, to believe in yourself, to be your own person and not get wrapped up in that comparison game, and I have students who years later have emailed me and said they took the earplugs with them to their various college campuses and, it helped them kind of stay the course. So likewise, I love to kind of use that image for parents and I would really encourage parents to maybe actually go out and buy a little pair of those foam earplugs and carry them around with them, but if not, just, remember the idea of earplugs and to stick them in metaphorically, to drown out the noise, to focus in on what makes their kids special, what makes their family special and to focus on their relationship, with their child because more than grades and more than test scores and more than the name of a specific college, that relationship is really what’s going to last over over time.

Cindy Lopez:
Thank you. I really appreciated you being with us today and appreciated this conversation and to our listeners, thank you for joining us. If you’re interested, there are resources listed in our show notes and so you can see more about Jen’s book there that she co-authored, The Parent Compass. We will also include because we’ve referenced it so much, Growth Mindset, Carol Dweck, some of those resources as well. So we hope to our listeners that you’ll join us again next week and thank you for listening in today.

Jenn Curtis, MSW:
Thank you for having me.

Cindy Lopez:
Find us online at podcasts.chconline.org. Also, please follow us on our socials. Find us on Facebook at chc.paloalto and Twitter and Instagram at CHC_paloalto. You can also visit our YouTube channel at chconlinepaloalto. And we are on LinkedIn. Subscribe to Voices of Compassion on Apple podcasts, Spotify and other podcast apps, and sign up for a virtual village email list so you never miss an update or an episode. I always love to hear from you so send me an email or a voice memo at podcasts@chconline.org or leave us a rating and review. We look forward to you tuning in each week.